Unedited Transcript Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=0.03″>00:00</a></u>): Okay, fast leader leaves. And today I’m excited because you’re going to learn about seven skills that are quite, I would say, almost getting to a point to where they’re vital to the best of your career and for the success of your organization. And you know what, you’re going to be surprised by what these seven skills entail. Cliff Goldmacher was born in New York, but given that his father was an international marketing executive for Pepsi among other companies, he spent the first 10 years of his life moving around Southeast Asia and countries, including Hong Kong, Japan, Thailand, Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia cliff moved back to the U S in 1980. And after a little time in the Northeast, moved to Memphis, Tennessee with his family for high school, and then ultimately to Northern California to attend Stanford. Cliff is the oldest of three children, which includes his brother, Peter and sister Caroline Cliff’s parents. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=54.57″>00:54</a></u>): Arthur and Dale were married for 54 years. And Cliff’s father is currently living in New York city. Cliff’s mother had always wanted to learn a musical instrument and didn’t have the opportunity as a child. So when cliff showed interest, he was actively supported. Those early piano lessons turned into picking up guitar by ear in college, which led to Cliff’s early performance and songwriting efforts. After graduation from Stanford, cliff spent a year supporting himself as a performer in a small French town in the Provence region. And then in the early 1990s, moved to Nashville, Tennessee to pursue pursue a career. As a songwriter, cliff wrote his first song in college and is still writing. He has been writing songs for 31 years besides being a professional songwriter. Chris cliff is also a music producer with recording studios in Nashville, Tennessee, and Sonoma, California. And as a consultant, working with business teams to help them become better innovators by teaching them how to write songs. Each of these jobs informs the other, which makes each of them work. Cliff has written over a thousand songs which have been recorded and performed in dozens of countries by brand new artists, all the way up to his recent collaboration with blues artists kept Mo on his 20, 20 Grammy winning album, album, Oklahoma. And he is the author of reasons for the rhymes cliff lives in Sonoma, California, with his wife, Sarah, a visual artists, Cliff Goldmacher, are you ready to help us get over the hump? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=146.37″>02:26</a></u>): Almost certainly am. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=148.26″>02:28</a></u>): If I’m glad you’re here. And we’ve had a great discussion prior to recording this interview, and I am hoping we can bring all of that dialogue, you know, into this recording so everybody can experience it, but I’ve given my Legion a little bit about you, but can you share what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=163.61″>02:43</a></u>): Absolutely. And very specifically it is my new book. The reason for the rhymes, what I love to do is to show business people who tend not to think of themselves as creative that they absolutely are. And I can show them how well as you say Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=180.22″>03:00</a></u>): That, um, you and I talked about this whole creative thinking, which is the foundation to innovation, um, which a lot of people don’t even understand how all of that works. So if you could maybe give people some insight into how the creative thinking process and innovation and then music kind of interplay with one another. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=199.35″>03:19</a></u>): Well, in my workshops with business teams, one of the things that I started to realize as I was walking them through the song writing process was initially I knew there were some benefits right off the bat, improving your creativity, your ability to communicate. But as I started to think about it a little more in depth, I realized that there are essentially seven skills that you develop as you are learning to write songs and all of those skills fit neatly under the heading of improving your ability to innovate. So I’ll start with the easy one. Lateral thinking. The metaphor in songwriting is a way of thinking of any idea differently. You just sort of look at it from a different angle. So your ability to think differently for innovation, critical creativity, when you write versus to your songs, you’re telling stories and telling stories is all about making things up. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=253.2″>04:13</a></u>): So in these little mini stories that you write in the verses of your songs, you’re improving your ability to create now, choruses of songs are totally different. That is where as I like to in delicately, put it, you take the message of your song. You tie it to the end of a baseball bat and you beat people with it. And that is all about your ability to communicate. So choruses are all about communication, then there’s empathy and empathy is something that songwriters developed by observing songwriters are all observers. They observe the human condition. The more that you observe, the more you put yourself in the place of the person you’re observing and that’s empathy. And for innovation, understanding how your innovations are going to connect with people super important. Then there’s collaboration. Co-writing, I’ve been co-writing for 25 years. And if I’ve learned anything, it’s that good collaborations end up with something better than any one of you could have done on your own. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=309.9″>05:09</a></u>): And that’s what I love about collaboration. And in an innovative environment, collaboration is key. Then there is the willingness to take risks and risk taking is one of those things that I think most people are a little bit averse to in songwriting. It’s the willingness to make yourself vulnerable in what you’re writing about. That that is critical to making songs work. And if you can slowly but surely develop your ability to make yourself vulnerable, you’ll be willing to take risks, which will help your ability to try new things to innovate. And then finally, the diffusion of your ideas and the parallel in songwriting is a performance, a song that isn’t performed. It doesn’t really connect with anybody in the same way that a great innovation that nobody knows about. I don’t know what that does. So the diffusion of your ideas and, and especially in an innovative context is developed by learning to perform. And that’s kind of the gist of, of what it is that I’m talking about in the book. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=370.36″>06:10</a></u>): Well, but as you’re talking, and for me, I’m even thinking about what the end outcome is, and I’m thinking about collaborative efforts, and I’m thinking about what many of us who are not in your industry, you know, are, are kind of know about the process. You know, it’s what we see on TV, right? Um, you know, it is what we, what we do experience as an output. But for me, when you’re talking, I’m thinking, Oh, is he talking about lyrics or is he talking about, you know, the actual notes and, you know, actually, you know, putting the entire piece together, help me understand that Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=400.66″>06:40</a></u>): Great question. So it is not a given that the people that I will be teaching these workshops to play an instrument or even sing for that matter. So it’s really about lyric writing, but the thing that pulls it together, the little bit of pixie dust is that when we are done writing the verse in the course of the song, in the workshop, I asked the attendees, well, what genre of song is this? Is this a blue song? Is it country? Is it folk? Is it hip hop? What is it? Then we put it to music and I make everybody sing it. And that’s when everyone’s heads explode. So it’s this idea that you take this thing that is essentially just a written lyric, add the music. And that just takes it up to another level. And when I get people who are not comfortable with the idea of singing and I get it, singing is scary when I get everybody to sing these things together. First of all, it makes you pay attention because you’re scared. But second of all, it puts you in sort of a flow state. And I can go up to people that I have taught this workshop to five years ago. And I can say to them, what was the song you wrote? They remember it just like that because I made them sing it. And because they’re not used to doing that. So the music is the second part. It’s sort of the two and the one, two punch of the song writing exercise. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=477.13″>07:57</a></u>): Okay. So then for me, even when, you know, when, as you’re saying that for me, I’m reflecting upon an experience that I went through where, um, there was, there was a person who was actually at our church who was, you know, um, uh, uh, almost as young age was like a grand master organist. I mean, this kid was phenomenal, um, and has since actually moved to Hollywood, um, to, because he wanted to be part of writing music scores. Um, so he had some lofty aspirations and actually I need to find out where he is, but anyway, um, he sat down and took one song, just a song that everybody knew. Um, and it was during like an open mic kind of, um, you know, open community type of thing. And we were just having fun. Um, and he took that song and, and he made it a rap song. He made it a country song. He made, you know, a Bach concerto. He took it and put it all into these different things. And it created such a different outcome from that one same source that I think our congregation ran that Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=536.1″>08:56</a></u>): Ranges from 99 to nine, nine days. Um, and say nine months was able to connect with it was just, Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=544.31″>09:04</a></u>): Yeah, the power of music is really remarkable. And, and just writing what you’re thinking about is, is already a great start, but it is that combination of the lyrics and the melody, and then singing it that really resonates with people. And that’s what I love about the combination of the, of the two. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=565.04″>09:25</a></u>): Well, and also too, I mean, as you’re saying this, I start thinking about oftentimes when we’re attempting to specifically be creative and innovative, and we talk about brainstorming and we talk about that painful process where this seems like it would bring out significantly greater enjoyment. And probably as a result of that have greater output. If you now take this and convert it into solving some of your organizational problems, Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=595.16″>09:55</a></u>): That’s it? I think any creative process, if not led properly, can bogged down and then just starts to feel like heavy lifting. And goodness knows in the 30 years that I’ve been writing songs, I had plenty of time to figure out how to do that. Like getting bogged down. So for me, it’s all about breaking it down into small pieces that everybody understands and making it fun in a way that doesn’t feel intimidating, because I will tell you this, if you tell a group of executives that you’re going to make them write a song it’s bad, it’s bad right away. So I do that. And then I immediately follow it with an example of a song that I’ve written that will sort of fit the style and they start to understand, Oh, okay, wait a minute. And then as I break it down into, well, how is it that you write a verse or how do you write a chorus? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=644.72″>10:44</a></u>): It becomes exciting again. And I had an executive once I’ll never forget this. He came up to me after the workshop. He said, I thought this was going to be the worst day of my professional life. And by the time we were done, he said, and it turns out it was one of the best. And that, to me, that’s why I do this because it takes something that most people think is either impossible or just is going to make them miserable. And I show them that it’s, it’s actually just, you take smart people. You give them the tools. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=675.02″>11:15</a></u>): We’re good here. Well, and as you’re talking, you know, and I talked, we mentioned beforehand, as far as the, a lot of the things that we focus in on here is employee experience and customer experience and, you know, impacting all of those so that, you know, it creates a lot of value from a lot of different perspectives. Okay. So if I’m thinking about organizations that you’ve worked with, can you kind of give us an understanding of what it would be like if I wanted to create a song to help me focus more on customer creativity and innovation. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=703.46″>11:43</a></u>): So, so there, the thing that I do when I do these workshops is every workshop is based on an issue that a company is currently dealing with. These issues are, are traditionally speaking, not exactly song material. I’ll give you an example. Uh, I was working with an airline, a major airline that was trying to coordinate disparate teams, teams spread out all over the country. So I don’t know about you, but singing, coordinating disparate teams. So we ended up writing a song about a flock of geese flying South for the winter called if you’ve got my front, I’ve got your back. And it’s all about how, when you work together, everything gets easier for everyone and you can effectively survive, which is what I have to do to fly South. And all of a sudden, you’ve got this sort of sticky kind of dry issue of coordinating disparate teams and you’ve infused emotion and real meaning to it in a way that by the time they were done, they got it. Like they understood. Now, this is what we’re here to do. We’re here to protect each other, take care of each other. And it’s really gratifying when you can break something down that is essentially just a business topic and make it real for people. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=776.28″>12:56</a></u>): No, I’m talking about the whole real part. And I think for many of us, what we look at is things that we’ve learned. We’d like to be able to apply. Uh, also when we learn them and we apply them, we’d like to be able to repeat it replicated, maybe even scale it. Right. So when I’m thinking about your work and because we’re talking about really, and you, and I mentioned this, a muscle that they’re trying to develop, that creativity muscle, and for many of us, it’s like, Whoa, you want me to do what? No, I’m not going to be part of that. Cause I’m not good at them. You know, getting them to a gauge is how do we get them to repeat? So it’s okay. I showed you how to do some of these things and talk about these skills and how they work in concert, no pun, yes. Pun intended. How do, how do they keep it going once you’re gone? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=826.35″>13:46</a></u>): Well, and that is exactly why I wrote the book, because what I realized was I can’t be everywhere. And so one of the things that I love, of course, I love being back before the pandemic. I loved being with groups and, and working with them and connecting with them and then even online. And I’ve done it that way too great, but I can’t be everywhere. So what I’ve done in the book, because I can’t create a new song for people who are reading my book, I found the solution, which was using sort of great old songs in what we call the public domain songs that have been around like America, the beautiful, or my Bonnie lies over the ocean songs where you already know the melody. So, you know, everybody knows dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So you’ve got your melody and now I give you the exercises to fit your lyrics inside of that melody. So even without me, you can continue whatever your issue is that you’re trying to convert into a song. I give you the steps and I also have the built-in melodies waiting for you. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=892.94″>14:52</a></u>): Yeah. So I mean, the book does, I mean, it’s like a, it’s a workbook, you know, effectively, if it is engaging, you know, workbook. So I’m curious to know, you know, have you had a scenario where you have done work and then an organization started incorporating this into more than just a group that you worked with and it became, you know, something that the overall organization started using as something that drives their purpose interactions and our activities. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=923.02″>15:23</a></u>): Wow. Nothing would make me happier if that were the case. I wish everybody would at least take the time to examine their ideas laterally differently. Because I think that there’s just so much potential there for, for new thinking, for innovation and for thinking about things that the way that I’ve heard it put is if you’re constantly using the same set of tools to solve problems, you’re kind of always going to get the same answers. But if you use a different set of tools and that’s effectively what I’m proposing, you’re in line for some new, Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=953.95″>15:53</a></u>): Well, I think it goes back to the whole skill set and being able to develop the risk, taking, being able to do a lot of those things, because I think you’re right. And that’s one of the reasons I mentioned on the show is on the fast leader show, I’ve had 20 plus guests that have talked about innovation and create another few open up to creative thinking. We’re probably even more than that. Um, but everybody has different perspectives, some approach it very much from a, you know, scientific and analytical perspective and on human behavior. And I mean, it’s, uh, it’s quite amazing to see some of them, some of it take it, take it from a product development perspective. Uh, so there’s, there’s these different viewpoints that I think for us, you almost have to, you know, it’s kind of like, you know, go into a buffet, right. Try them all. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1002.73″>16:42</a></u>): Yeah, I think so. And as I was writing the book, I had sort of a, what I like to refer to as my dark night of the soul, as I was writing the book, which was once I realized that all of these skills, that song writing helps you develop fit under the heading of innovation. I had this moment where I thought, what do I know about innovation? And then I stopped. And I thought two things. One my entire career is predicated on innovation. Every song that I write is a mini innovation. I have to do something slightly different than what’s been done before. And the way I like to put this is if you’re writing songs in the hopes that they will get recorded by a recording artist, you’re not only competing against every song that’s being written now, but every song that has ever been written ever, which don’t look at those odds too closely, or you won’t get in my line of work. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1054.57″>17:34</a></u>): But for me, it made me realize I’ve been innovating since I wrote my first song. And then even on a macro level to have a career in the arts of any kind, you know, for me having a career in music for 30 years, you have to constantly reinvent yourself. You can’t in my industry. There are very, very few thoroughbreds, very few people who do one thing do it so well that they, can’t not only can’t, but won’t do anything else and make a living at that for the rest of us, the rank and file in the music world. We have to constantly reinvent ourselves and figure out what it is that my guiding principle to back up is how do I get up every day and do something that has to do with music? And if I can answer that question, I’m moving forward. And so back to my dark night of the soul, once I stopped for a second and realized I’ve been innovating since the first day, I decided to make song writing a career. It was easy after that. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1108.76″>18:28</a></u>): Well, and as you’re talking and looking at your bio and you and I even talked about the way that we construct files and the fast leader show, and I told you, I said, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll probably never go to another podcast. That’ll ask you for a bio like ours, because we want to connect with you and understand you as a person, because it’s, that, that makes what you do. Great. So for me, it’s, you’re talking and we’re talking about perspectives and we’re talking about creative thinking. I go back to the whole youth scenario and you live living in these different cultures. So I have to ask you, I mean, have you been able to really look and see how those influences have really helped, you know, with your ability to be more creative thinking in your music? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1148.18″>19:08</a></u>): Oh, I, I think it’s, I think it’s essential to what I do. I think that before I even knew that I was doing this, I was basically showing that the world is a big place with lots of different ways of doing things and lots of different ways of thinking about things. And that’s, I didn’t have to be told that every year and a half, I went into a new culture and saw different ways to do it. And that’s, I mean, talk about formative. That was just quite possibly the best thing that could have happened. And we all love doing it as a family. We all genuinely enjoyed the travel and the new countries and the new experiences. So the whole thing was, was absolutely a big part of why I do what I do today. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1187.9″>19:47</a></u>): Well, even so, okay. So, and then, as you said, that it kind of triggered me to, and your mother always had the desire, you know, so, you know, what, what was the music development and creation and all that encouraged in the home, even though she didn’t have that? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1203.38″>20:03</a></u>): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So for me, you know, as I said, I think my mom always, as a kid had wanted to learn to play piano and she did some as an adult, but then when, um, it became clear that I was interested in music, there was always a piano in the house, right? So as I started to play around with it, and as it, as it became clear that I was interested, my mom was just wonderfully supportive and, you know, there were piano lessons and, and it was not just the lessons, but I will tell you, in all sincerity, every time I sit down to play piano, there is somebody who says I used to play piano and I quit. And I wish I hadn’t. And it is 100% because kids are kids, right. I wanted to quit. It is 100% because my mom was in her own firm, but kind way, not willing to let me quit that I’m doing what I’m doing and I’ll be eternally grateful. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1256.16″>20:56</a></u>): Well, thanks for sharing that. Um, so you’d start talking about all of this work, the requirement, you know, like you had mentioned having to pivot and, you know, do your own, you know, creative, you know, actions and continue to go through that process. Um, I know obviously through music and many other things, you know, there’s a lot of inspiration that we have to seek in order to keep going forward. And one of the things that we use on the show in order to help be inspired, of course, song is one of them. Yes. But quotes are easier for us to focus in on the show. Is there a quote or two that you liked that you can share? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1290.72″>21:30</a></u>): Oh, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes, because in any career, as certainly in music, it can feel so overwhelming what you have to do or what you have to overcome. My favorite quote is eat the elephant one bite at a time. And something about that for me just makes what was for many years, just, uh, daunting to the point of almost inaction at times, um, set of goals manageable. I realized that I could just take this. And usually for creatives, it’s not the creative part. That’s the daunting part. It’s making a living doing it. That’s the part that scares us. It’s the exact opposite of business. People who make a living. I got that. Don’t ask me to be creative, but I can make a living. It’s exactly the opposite for creatives. We are moved to do this thing, but we don’t understand, or it just feels so overwhelming how to make that a business, a living. And so for me, eating the elephant one bite at a time, just made that possible for me. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1352.01″>22:32</a></u>): Uh, I think what, what do they say? Um, there’s a reason the phrase star starving artists exists is because they are. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1359.21″>22:39</a></u>): Yeah. And I, and I am firmly a non-believer that, that has to be the case. And I, I feel like I wish more artists understood that one informs the other meaning, right? What moves you don’t ever not. Right. What moves you, but understand that if you want to continue to be able to do that, you have to do this. You have to run a business and it is a business. And I struggled with it. We all do on some level, but at some point I realized, well, if I’m going to be serious about this and I want to keep doing this, you just have to figure it out. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1389.11″>23:09</a></u>): I think that’s a great point then email, but coming to that realization thing, you know, and when sometimes we, um, you know, lack to make the decisions that we need to, or we make ones that we shouldn’t, and, you know, there’s times where we’ve had to get over the hump and a lot of others can learn from that. We share those on the show. Is there a time where you’ve gotten over the hump that you can share? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1409.4″>23:29</a></u>): Yeah. I, I think for me it was, I had been living in Nashville at this point for close to 15 years. And in Nashville, sort of the currency is whether a major label artist has recorded one of your songs. And at 15 years in, after writing songs for all that time, without anything sort of above the surface for people to sort of recognize a major label artist finally recorded one of my songs. And it was just this moment of okay, after all of this time of essentially toiling in relative obscurity to have that finally happened was an acknowledgement that I had been on the right track, even without the confirmation that this ultimate recognition provided. It’s a big relief. I can tell you that Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1458.43″>24:18</a></u>): For cliff, I have to ask, can you share that you share? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1461.25″>24:21</a></u>): Absolutely. There was, um, an artist, uh, named Ronan Tynan and Irish tenor, and he recorded a song that I wrote with my friend, Jeff Cohen called the light inside of you. And my favorite part is we made the demo one vocalist and a piano sent it to him. He was on universal records and they recorded the song with him and the Royal Philharmonic orchestra. And it was just jaw dropping. It was, it was a great reward for 15 years of patients and not so much patients at times. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1495″>24:55</a></u>): Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine I, you good for you. So I, but when I think about the book, when I think about, you had mentioned something about, you know, the COVID and now we have this proximity issue and can’t be close when I think about organizations taking this and building those creative skills in that and that muscle so that they can actually get even more value out of it. I started thinking about you probably thinking about goals that you have is the one you can share Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1523.86″>25:23</a></u>): Goals going forward. Yes. There are so many, you know, and the, and the thing is that there are some that I don’t know that I’m going to have until I’m a little further down the road. But ultimately for me at this point, I feel like once I connected with this idea of using songwriting to help people innovate, my goal is to spread the word. And you know, that that’s been, what’s been really taking up the majority of my emotional and actual physical time. These days is figuring out how to share this message. And that’s why Jim I’m really grateful for the opportunity. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1556.44″>25:56</a></u>): Oh, and the honor’s mine and the fast leader, Legion wishes you the very best. Now, before we move on, let’s get it quick Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1563.16″>26:03</a></u>): Word from our sponsor. And even better place to work is an easy to use solution that gives you a continuous diagnostic on employee engagement, along with integrated activities that will improve employee engagement and leadership skills in everyone using this award winning solutions, guaranteed to create motivated, productive, and loyal employees who have great work relationships with our colleagues and your customers to learn more about an even better place to work visit [inaudible] dot com forward slash better. Alright, here we go. Fast leader Legion. It’s time home now. Okay. Clip the Humpday. Hold on to the part of our show where you give us good insights best. And I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us a robust, yet rapid responses that are going to host onward and upward faster cliff Goldmark. Are you ready to hold Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1604.4″>26:44</a></u>): Down? I’m ready. Right. So what is holding you back from being an even better leader? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1610.24″>26:50</a></u>): So for me, I think the thing that I struggle with is big picture strategy. I’m good on the tactics strategy, I have to remind myself Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1619.09″>26:59</a></u>): And what is the best leadership advice you’ve ever received? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1622.78″>27:02</a></u>): I had a co-writer once say to me, stop squeezing so hard on this thing. Just let it happen. So for me, don’t squeeze so hard. Even if something, especially if something is important to you, just relax and things will happen much better for you. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1637.18″>27:17</a></u>): And what is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1641.35″>27:21</a></u>): I have learned over the years that since I am self-employed and running my own business, I have to jealously guard my motivation. My motivation basically powers everything. So I have to make absolutely certain that nothing diminishes my desire to keep moving forward. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1657.94″>27:37</a></u>): And what is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success? And I just asked that and let me ask you another one. And what is one of your tools that you believe helps you in business or life? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1667.78″>27:47</a></u>): So for me, I am a worker bee. My willingness to do the work, I think is one of my secrets now to my earlier admission, because I’m a worker bee and a tactical guy, I have to remind myself about strategy, but as far as one of the things that keeps me moving forward and is my best tool, it’s my willingness to do the work. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1688.54″>28:08</a></u>): And what would be one book that you’d recommend? And it could be from any genre. Of course, we’re going to put a link to the reason for the rhymes on your show notes page as well. Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1697.21″>28:17</a></u>): Thank you. So for me, mastery by George Leonard is a book that talks all about what it means to be a master and how important the journey itself is as opposed to achieving any one particular goal. So mastery by George Leonard, Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1715.33″>28:35</a></u>): Okay. Pass legal, and you can find links to that. And other bonus information from today’s show, by going to fast leader.net/cliff gold mocker. And let me spell it for you. It’s G O L D M a C H E R. Okay. Cliff. This is my last pump. Hold on question. Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25 skills that you have now back with you, but you can’t take it all. You can only take one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1743.17″>29:03</a></u>): I would absolutely remind myself to enjoy the journey. I think for me, I came to the ultimate realization much later that a career in songwriting is a life and not just a means of making a living or winning an award. So once I started to understand, this is not what I do, this is who I am. It allowed me to just enjoy every step along the way, as opposed to waiting for whatever these milestones were that I imagined would be out there to make me happy. The moment I figured out that it was the journey that made me happy. I was good Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1778.2″>29:38</a></u>): Cliff. I had fun with you today. Can you please share with the fascinator leading how they can with you? Cliff Goldmacher (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1782.28″>29:42</a></u>): Absolutely. And thank you, Jim. Uh, the reason for the rhymes.com is the best way to find me. Jim Rembach (<u><a href=”https://www.temi.com/editor/t/DtJLTyHxvi71AzeMbeqVgpy5Ah8ZgDMjPwUGV2dvmAKxr5bZzmaF60OY0D7tGOQNfmioTwpLKj46LoB7Uotku_M-BKQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&amp;ts=1789.74″>29:49</a></u>): Cliff Goldmacher. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom in the fast leader, Legion honors you, and thanks you for helping us get over the hump.